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Facing systemic racism in health care: Inequities in medical education
Finding inspiration among life’s challenges
Barbara Levy, MD: I am fortunate to have met Pierre serendipitously at a training that we were both attending and was impressed by Dr. Johnson’s life story, his passion and commitment, and his dedication—not only to his personal career but also to raising up other young men of color by trying to break down barriers that face them. His life story highlights those areas of systemic and structural problems that all of us together need to address if we are going to make any progress.
Pierre Johnson, MD: Thank you, Barbara. A little about myself: I am a board-certified ObGyn, and I specialize in minimally invasive surgery. I was born on the South side of Chicago, experiencing gang violence, drugs, and substandard, underserved schools. Long story short, I had a very rough upbringing. I had a single mom and several different issues at home. I am the oldest of 5 siblings, and life was tough.
But I knew that I wanted to do something different with my life. I saw that there was a need in my community as far as health care was concerned, in particular women’s health and childbirth. I knew early on that I wanted to be an ObGyn, and the reason had a lot to do with The Cosby Show. It was the only example of a positive, successful Black man that I saw. No one graduated from college in my family. There weren’t any models of young Black excellence around me. Saying that I wanted to be a doctor planted a seed. I was 9 when my mom became pregnant with my first sibling, and it was fascinating to me. The physiology of pregnancy, and eventually childbirth, was extremely fascinating to me; it set me off on my journey to be an ObGyn.
As I got older, things didn’t get any easier. I went to high school in one of the toughest areas on the South side of Chicago. Gang violence, and violence in and of itself, were all around me, but I was able to stay focused. I went on to Xavier University in Louisiana.
Dr. Levy: There are some important things that I learned from your book and from talking to you at our first meeting. Your mom’s ObGyn, when she was pregnant with your next youngest sibling, was also a Black ObGyn. He took some time to take you under wing?
Dr. Johnson: He did. My mom’s ObGyn was a Black man. Other than The Cosby Show, that’s the only time I saw something like that. When I spoke to him, he really took the time to answer my questions and show me that he was like me; he wasn’t just a far-off mythical person, or something that I could not obtain.
Continue to: Seeing is believing when it comes to success...
Seeing is believing when it comes to success
Dr. Levy: Do you think it was important to have a role model who wasn’t a sports star?
Dr. Johnson: If you can’t see it, you can’t achieve it. He took his time to really talk to me, and it’s the little things for kids that go a long way in their life experience. I still have a relationship with him to this day. How he handled me as a kid made me realize that this is something that I could do. That was extremely important for me.
Dr. Levy: One of the structural things I think we need to point out is that the ability to see yourself as someone successful is critical. When we see 1,000 images a day and they are all White, and they are all so different from where we are that it gets incorporated into our sense of being. I think that’s really difficult for those of us of with privilege to understand what that privilege is.
Dr. Johnson: Absolutely, and I’ll even go further. In residency, 2 White females were my classmates, and both of their parents were doctors. They had grandparents who were doctors. My mom was addicted to drugs; my father was not around. They had been talking medicine since they were 5. You have to make things equitable, but in medicine it’s really not equitable. In medicine, what we don’t realize is that there is an importance for all aspects of someone’s upbringing and environment, and it’s not just what they can regurgitate on a standardized test. If a patient can’t relate to you and tell you what is wrong with them, how can you adequately treat them?
Dr. Levy: Even if they are trying to tell me, but I can’t hear it because I don’t have the language and I don’t have the background. There are really good data to show, in fact, that Black male physicians do a better job at engaging Black men to manage their hypertension.1 When we look at the inequities in birth outcomes for women of color, indigenous women and Black women, there’s evidence that providers who come from a similar background do a better job.
Dr. Johnson: There was the study of Black infants that just came out about them dying at a 3-time higher rate in non-Black physicians’ hands.2 These things need to be recognized. They need to be discussed, and they need to be identified as issues and then, realistically, we need to start talking about solutions, not get offended by what actual statistics are saying.
Foundational inequities in education
Dr. Levy: To address some of the barriers that you faced: I know that you went to a high school that was not geared toward pushing students into professional careers. Your colleagues, however, had educations that prepared them for the standardized tests and other things that they would face academically.
Dr. Johnson: People think I am kidding when I say it, but when I went into college, I didn’t know what a periodic table was. I saw it, but I had no idea what these things meant. I didn’t have any sciences or any AP classes in high school. I did well, but grades are smoke and mirrors. The true test of medicine comes with testing. From the MCATs to the boards, every step of the way there is a standardized test.
Knowledge is something that you can obtain, but test taking is a cultivated skill that happens from a very early age. Trying to teach an adult or someone in their late teens a skill that they should have learned as a kid is difficult. For me, I did not have that, so I had to program myself. I had to learn how to fundamentally take tests as an adult, where most people understand how to do that going into college and professional school.
Dr. Levy: I was impressed with your resilience. I think all of us as human beings, if we fail a test, we take it personally and think it’s about our lack of knowledge. One of the insights that you came to was that failure on those things was not that you didn’t study hard enough. In fact, you probably studied 4 times harder than most other people. You had the knowledge. Being able to get that knowledge into a standardized structured test score was the huge challenge for you.
Dr. Johnson: That’s it. I can remember taking the MCAT, and if you looked at the step 1 book, I could regurgitate to you everything on that page. However, it’s not a test about do you know it or not. It’s an understanding of the English language and how to break things down to make things fit into particular scenarios.
Continue to: A college experience focused on growth and exposure...
A college experience focused on growth and exposure
Dr. Levy: I was impressed by the distinction between your experience at Xavier University where there was a lot of support and guidance and help in your premed program, and what happened to you when you hit medical school.
Dr. Johnson: Xavier University in Louisiana is the number 1 institution in the country for getting minorities into professional school. They understand that they have kids that are brilliant but underprepared, and just have not had the background to actually tackle some of these tough curriculums. I always had good grades in school. But by not being challenged, I didn’t know what I didn’t really know. So now that I was seeing biology, chemistry for the first time, and trying to tackle it; there’s a failure point. I didn’t know how to take tests, and I didn’t know how to study properly. The harder I tried, the worse things got for me.
Xavier has seen that story a multitude of times. If I went to a bigger or predominantly White university, a counselor would have told me, “Well, medicine’s maybe not for you. You can’t handle a premed curriculum.” Instead, I said, “Listen, I’m studying. I’m doing all of these things, and I’m not hacking it.” And they broke it down: “Let’s get you into study groups with kids that have had these type of AP classes before. We’ll have you watch how they study,” and everything started to click. That facilitation of how to adjust to this curriculum was a godsend. It’s the only reason I’m here. I am a prime example of being brilliant enough to be able to do it, but needing the infrastructure and a system set up.
Dr. Levy: There’s a great book by Carol Dweck called Mindset that talks about education of young kids and putting them into silos so early in life; the brilliant kids go into the AP courses and the rest are labeled as inadequate. It’s assumed in a fixed mindset based on their heredity and IQ, and not based on the fact that they have not been exposed to the right things.
Xavier was growing you into the man who could, in fact, do all of those things. I think that is one of the systemic and structural issues that we have—that fixed mindset that frames a kid who is not succeeding as therefore unable to succeed, as opposed to framing that child as not having the correct tools.
New tribulations of medical school
Dr. Johnson: Absolutely. I think what Xavier did for me is to at least let me understand what I needed to do, how to comprehend and retain information, which I never had been exposed to before. Those years were very important to establishing a foundation. When going to medical school, it was like, “There’s no more excuses. What could be the problem now?” Well, now let’s talk about taking tests—a whole different skill. Xavier focused on getting me to understand how to structure my thought process and knowledge base. In medical school I had to apply those skills (because if you can’t apply them, there’s no fit).
My second through fourth year of medical school, I was the only African-American kid in my class. I was spending 20-hour days sometimes just studying, trying to overcompensate by knowing as much as I possibly could and thinking that would propel me from the test-taking standpoint. Even though I didn’t have a lot of classmates in medical school that looked like me, I did have mentors that looked similarly, who really saw potential in me. Dr. Frederick Horvath, a nephrologist in Peoria said, “What are you doing? I want you to get out of these books, and let’s go out to lunch.”
He ended up buying me some instrumental books, really talked to me, listening to my background and understanding how driven I was as a person. He took me under his wing for the rest of medical school and said, “This is how you navigate through these spaces. Yes, you need to have a fund of knowledge to be able to take these tests, but you need to start understanding how to apply it to these questions.” I’m forever grateful to Dr. Horvath for doing that because it was a point in time where I was lost and struggling.
Continue to: Hitting a stride but facing racism head-on...
Hitting a stride but facing racism head-on
Dr. Levy: You talk about the systemic and pervasive racism that was on the wards when you hit them in fourth year. If you don’t mind sharing just a little bit of that, it would help people reading this to have a better understanding of the kinds of barriers that are out there.
Dr. Johnson: Even when I talk about it today, it bothers me.
I went to medical school in Peoria, Illinois, not far from the home of the Ku Klux Klan. At that time, once you got out of Chicago it was a very brutal place, with systemic racism throughout. I was a young Black kid going through a process that not many young Black kids from the South side of Chicago go through, and you had people who had never seen anyone like me. When I was going through my clinical rotations, I knew what I was up against. I was dressed “to the T” every day, arriving early, leaving late, trying to answer questions. I would look at the evaluations, and they would be disparaging. I would look at my counterparts, how their evaluations were, and how people would respond to them, and it would be completely different.
Surgery was the part of ObGyn that I really grew to love more than anything, even more than obstetrics. When general surgery came, I wanted to take it very seriously and learn as much as I possibly could. From the beginning, I knew there was a problem because the chief resident, an older White man, wouldn’t look me in the eye or talk to me. He would make disparaging remarks. The thing that stuck out in my mind the most was when I was in the operating room transporting patients, just like a medical student did, and he came up behind me and said, “You know, Pierre, this is where a small mind and a strong back come into play.” For me, it took me to a place where I had to corral my emotions and thoughts because I just wanted to lash out and just tell him how racist and horrible that was for him to say that to me. I explained this to the powers that be, the director of the department, and they basically blew it off to the side.
When it came down to the end of the evaluation period, I passed with flying colors. But they gave me an incomplete because of that chief resident and his remarks on my evaluations. He had 3 pages of report about me as a person and as a student. He said that he had difficulty in expressing his opinions about me because of possible cultural biases that he may have had. He put “cultural biases” in an evaluation, and they looked at that and said that was enough for me to have to remediate my time. I was required to do an extra month in Pontiac, Illinois, which is even more rural than Peoria, because of a racist person that did not give me a fair opportunity because I was Black.
Like everything else in life, it was a learning experience. It’s why I fight so hard today. It’s why I’m so passionate about equity, not only in medicine but also in all aspects of society. It shows why we have police brutality and Black men dying in the streets. It shows how this happens because there are cultural and implicit biases that play out in every part of life, and we are not honest about it. Until we are honest about it and until we say that this is happening and there is something that needs to be done to address it, it’s going to continue to happen. That is my fight.
Exposing the unspoken power struggle
Dr. Levy: I couldn’t agree more. Attributing things like that to the individual, where you talk about a White man in power and a power structure that didn’t literally physically beat you but did beat you into submission. You talk about how to succeed in medical school, and how you had to suck it up and submit to something that was incredibly unfair. You understood, you were old enough, mature enough, to understand that if you fought back, you were going to lose. The only opportunity you had was to submit to that inequity and push forward.
Dr. Johnson: When I did try to fight, the chair of the department told me that either I accept the consequences or I would not graduate from medical school and be forced to do another year. That struck a chord with me. I think that happens a lot in our society, and it needs to be exposed.
Past experiences reflected in today’s society
Dr. Levy: Can you talk about what you faced in your ObGyn residency in terms of the systemic pushback, people not taking your orders, people questioning you. I know that I have heard that a great deal, and I experienced that myself as a woman.
Dr. Johnson: We look at the things that are happening now, everything from George Floyd’s murder to Colin Kaepernick taking a knee. These things are 10 years past when I first started residency. The year before I started residency, there was a noose hanging on the capitol lawn of Springfield, Illinois’ capital city. There’s systemic racism and hatred there. When I first started on the wards of my first year of ObGyn, again, I was the very first Black resident of my program’s history. Nobody could relate to me.
I went from a year-long general surgery internship at Washington Hospital Center in Washington, DC, to ObGyn residency. In the first 2 months, there were complaints of, “He’s not answering his pages. He’s not being prompt.” I went to my program director and said, “Listen, I have never had one complaint like this. There’s a problem here. And there’s a problem when I’m on the floor: When trying to give orders to nurses, they’re not taking them. I had to tell a couple of nurses, ‘I’m Dr. Johnson. Don’t call me by my first name, especially not in front of patients.’”
My director was just not hearing me, because the entire scenario was something they had never been exposed to. Systemic racism is real, and unless you experience it, it’s very difficult to accept that it is happening. But biases happen when you are not cognizant. People are used to things a certain way. Things play out in the media that make your mind think a certain way, and you don’t even realize it. You may not even want to be that way.
Continue to: Unconscious bias is a barrier to ensuring equity...
Unconscious bias is a barrier to ensuring equity
Dr. Levy: One very important point you just made is that we as the system need to be able to recognize those unconscious things, the language that we use, the disparaging remarks, the things that put people down, as well as the things that keep people out of promotion.
There are some interesting data about both race and gender and the language that we use when we write recommendations for people, that we do things unconsciously. The big message to all of us at the end is to open our minds to where those things can occur. For myself, professionally, I keep a list of words that I use when I write recommendations. I measure myself to ensure that I am using the same language for men and women, for Black and White. I think we need to overcome the system and the structure to create real equity—not equality but equity.
It begins with being real about the issues
Dr. Johnson: It’s a bigger problem than the existence of bias and racism. I think these are systemic issues that have been cultivated over centuries that have never been addressed. The true issue is that we deny that these are problems and refuse to talk about it because it makes us uncomfortable. To truly make things more equitable, we have to push our levels of comfort to be able to talk about things in a healthy manner, be open and transparent, and to start to understand how we are thinking about certain things. When you can see it, you can start to implement changes and start to change mentalities and thought processes.
For me, people say, “You don’t look like a doctor.” I get that all the time—because I have tattoos and earrings. I wear my hair in a mohawk. The image of what success looks like has been manifested through our media and culture, and it has imprinted on our minds as to how things are supposed to be. If someone doesn’t fit those molds, we start to shun them out, or we start to exhibit biases against those things. What I am trying to do is change that thought process of what a successful or a professional person looks like. It doesn’t have a look. It is not a White or Black thing. It’s an intellect, a mindset, a way of living. You have to treat every person as an individual and take all the biases out of it and understand where they are coming from and what they have to offer to the profession.
Dr. Levy: I personally was so impressed by you when I met you. I was impressed by the tattoos and the earrings, and my initial response to them was exactly that biased, “Oh, who is this person?” I checked that at the door, listened to you, and was really impressed at your surgical skill, your knowledge, your background. I am really grateful that you have been willing to spend the time to share that with everyone.
Dr. Johnson: Thank you for this discussion.
To watch the full interview between Drs. Levy and Johnson, visit: https://www.mdedge.com/obgyn/article/228507/facing-systemic-racism-health-care-inequities-medical-education. ●
- The Pulse of Perseverance:
Three Black Doctors on Their Journey to Success Pierre Johnson, MD; Maxime Madhere, MD; and Joseph Semien Jr, MD - Mindset:
The New Psychology of Success
Carol S. Dweck
- Benkert R, Peters R, Tate N, et al. Trust of nurse practitioners and physicians among African Americans with hypertension. J Am Acad Nurse Pract. 2008;20:273-280.
- Greenwood BN, Hardeman RR, Huang L, et al. Physician– patient racial concordance and disparities in birthing mortality for newborns. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2020; 117:21194-21200.
Dr. Levy is Clinical Professor, Obstetrics and Gynecology, George Washington University of Medicine and Health Sciences and Principal, The Levy Group LLC, Washington DC. She is a member of the
Dr. Johnson is an Obstetrician-Gynecologist, UChicago Medicine, Illinois.
The authors report no financial relationships related to this article.
Dr. Levy is Clinical Professor, Obstetrics and Gynecology, George Washington University of Medicine and Health Sciences and Principal, The Levy Group LLC, Washington DC. She is a member of the
Dr. Johnson is an Obstetrician-Gynecologist, UChicago Medicine, Illinois.
The authors report no financial relationships related to this article.
Dr. Levy is Clinical Professor, Obstetrics and Gynecology, George Washington University of Medicine and Health Sciences and Principal, The Levy Group LLC, Washington DC. She is a member of the
Dr. Johnson is an Obstetrician-Gynecologist, UChicago Medicine, Illinois.
The authors report no financial relationships related to this article.
Finding inspiration among life’s challenges
Barbara Levy, MD: I am fortunate to have met Pierre serendipitously at a training that we were both attending and was impressed by Dr. Johnson’s life story, his passion and commitment, and his dedication—not only to his personal career but also to raising up other young men of color by trying to break down barriers that face them. His life story highlights those areas of systemic and structural problems that all of us together need to address if we are going to make any progress.
Pierre Johnson, MD: Thank you, Barbara. A little about myself: I am a board-certified ObGyn, and I specialize in minimally invasive surgery. I was born on the South side of Chicago, experiencing gang violence, drugs, and substandard, underserved schools. Long story short, I had a very rough upbringing. I had a single mom and several different issues at home. I am the oldest of 5 siblings, and life was tough.
But I knew that I wanted to do something different with my life. I saw that there was a need in my community as far as health care was concerned, in particular women’s health and childbirth. I knew early on that I wanted to be an ObGyn, and the reason had a lot to do with The Cosby Show. It was the only example of a positive, successful Black man that I saw. No one graduated from college in my family. There weren’t any models of young Black excellence around me. Saying that I wanted to be a doctor planted a seed. I was 9 when my mom became pregnant with my first sibling, and it was fascinating to me. The physiology of pregnancy, and eventually childbirth, was extremely fascinating to me; it set me off on my journey to be an ObGyn.
As I got older, things didn’t get any easier. I went to high school in one of the toughest areas on the South side of Chicago. Gang violence, and violence in and of itself, were all around me, but I was able to stay focused. I went on to Xavier University in Louisiana.
Dr. Levy: There are some important things that I learned from your book and from talking to you at our first meeting. Your mom’s ObGyn, when she was pregnant with your next youngest sibling, was also a Black ObGyn. He took some time to take you under wing?
Dr. Johnson: He did. My mom’s ObGyn was a Black man. Other than The Cosby Show, that’s the only time I saw something like that. When I spoke to him, he really took the time to answer my questions and show me that he was like me; he wasn’t just a far-off mythical person, or something that I could not obtain.
Continue to: Seeing is believing when it comes to success...
Seeing is believing when it comes to success
Dr. Levy: Do you think it was important to have a role model who wasn’t a sports star?
Dr. Johnson: If you can’t see it, you can’t achieve it. He took his time to really talk to me, and it’s the little things for kids that go a long way in their life experience. I still have a relationship with him to this day. How he handled me as a kid made me realize that this is something that I could do. That was extremely important for me.
Dr. Levy: One of the structural things I think we need to point out is that the ability to see yourself as someone successful is critical. When we see 1,000 images a day and they are all White, and they are all so different from where we are that it gets incorporated into our sense of being. I think that’s really difficult for those of us of with privilege to understand what that privilege is.
Dr. Johnson: Absolutely, and I’ll even go further. In residency, 2 White females were my classmates, and both of their parents were doctors. They had grandparents who were doctors. My mom was addicted to drugs; my father was not around. They had been talking medicine since they were 5. You have to make things equitable, but in medicine it’s really not equitable. In medicine, what we don’t realize is that there is an importance for all aspects of someone’s upbringing and environment, and it’s not just what they can regurgitate on a standardized test. If a patient can’t relate to you and tell you what is wrong with them, how can you adequately treat them?
Dr. Levy: Even if they are trying to tell me, but I can’t hear it because I don’t have the language and I don’t have the background. There are really good data to show, in fact, that Black male physicians do a better job at engaging Black men to manage their hypertension.1 When we look at the inequities in birth outcomes for women of color, indigenous women and Black women, there’s evidence that providers who come from a similar background do a better job.
Dr. Johnson: There was the study of Black infants that just came out about them dying at a 3-time higher rate in non-Black physicians’ hands.2 These things need to be recognized. They need to be discussed, and they need to be identified as issues and then, realistically, we need to start talking about solutions, not get offended by what actual statistics are saying.
Foundational inequities in education
Dr. Levy: To address some of the barriers that you faced: I know that you went to a high school that was not geared toward pushing students into professional careers. Your colleagues, however, had educations that prepared them for the standardized tests and other things that they would face academically.
Dr. Johnson: People think I am kidding when I say it, but when I went into college, I didn’t know what a periodic table was. I saw it, but I had no idea what these things meant. I didn’t have any sciences or any AP classes in high school. I did well, but grades are smoke and mirrors. The true test of medicine comes with testing. From the MCATs to the boards, every step of the way there is a standardized test.
Knowledge is something that you can obtain, but test taking is a cultivated skill that happens from a very early age. Trying to teach an adult or someone in their late teens a skill that they should have learned as a kid is difficult. For me, I did not have that, so I had to program myself. I had to learn how to fundamentally take tests as an adult, where most people understand how to do that going into college and professional school.
Dr. Levy: I was impressed with your resilience. I think all of us as human beings, if we fail a test, we take it personally and think it’s about our lack of knowledge. One of the insights that you came to was that failure on those things was not that you didn’t study hard enough. In fact, you probably studied 4 times harder than most other people. You had the knowledge. Being able to get that knowledge into a standardized structured test score was the huge challenge for you.
Dr. Johnson: That’s it. I can remember taking the MCAT, and if you looked at the step 1 book, I could regurgitate to you everything on that page. However, it’s not a test about do you know it or not. It’s an understanding of the English language and how to break things down to make things fit into particular scenarios.
Continue to: A college experience focused on growth and exposure...
A college experience focused on growth and exposure
Dr. Levy: I was impressed by the distinction between your experience at Xavier University where there was a lot of support and guidance and help in your premed program, and what happened to you when you hit medical school.
Dr. Johnson: Xavier University in Louisiana is the number 1 institution in the country for getting minorities into professional school. They understand that they have kids that are brilliant but underprepared, and just have not had the background to actually tackle some of these tough curriculums. I always had good grades in school. But by not being challenged, I didn’t know what I didn’t really know. So now that I was seeing biology, chemistry for the first time, and trying to tackle it; there’s a failure point. I didn’t know how to take tests, and I didn’t know how to study properly. The harder I tried, the worse things got for me.
Xavier has seen that story a multitude of times. If I went to a bigger or predominantly White university, a counselor would have told me, “Well, medicine’s maybe not for you. You can’t handle a premed curriculum.” Instead, I said, “Listen, I’m studying. I’m doing all of these things, and I’m not hacking it.” And they broke it down: “Let’s get you into study groups with kids that have had these type of AP classes before. We’ll have you watch how they study,” and everything started to click. That facilitation of how to adjust to this curriculum was a godsend. It’s the only reason I’m here. I am a prime example of being brilliant enough to be able to do it, but needing the infrastructure and a system set up.
Dr. Levy: There’s a great book by Carol Dweck called Mindset that talks about education of young kids and putting them into silos so early in life; the brilliant kids go into the AP courses and the rest are labeled as inadequate. It’s assumed in a fixed mindset based on their heredity and IQ, and not based on the fact that they have not been exposed to the right things.
Xavier was growing you into the man who could, in fact, do all of those things. I think that is one of the systemic and structural issues that we have—that fixed mindset that frames a kid who is not succeeding as therefore unable to succeed, as opposed to framing that child as not having the correct tools.
New tribulations of medical school
Dr. Johnson: Absolutely. I think what Xavier did for me is to at least let me understand what I needed to do, how to comprehend and retain information, which I never had been exposed to before. Those years were very important to establishing a foundation. When going to medical school, it was like, “There’s no more excuses. What could be the problem now?” Well, now let’s talk about taking tests—a whole different skill. Xavier focused on getting me to understand how to structure my thought process and knowledge base. In medical school I had to apply those skills (because if you can’t apply them, there’s no fit).
My second through fourth year of medical school, I was the only African-American kid in my class. I was spending 20-hour days sometimes just studying, trying to overcompensate by knowing as much as I possibly could and thinking that would propel me from the test-taking standpoint. Even though I didn’t have a lot of classmates in medical school that looked like me, I did have mentors that looked similarly, who really saw potential in me. Dr. Frederick Horvath, a nephrologist in Peoria said, “What are you doing? I want you to get out of these books, and let’s go out to lunch.”
He ended up buying me some instrumental books, really talked to me, listening to my background and understanding how driven I was as a person. He took me under his wing for the rest of medical school and said, “This is how you navigate through these spaces. Yes, you need to have a fund of knowledge to be able to take these tests, but you need to start understanding how to apply it to these questions.” I’m forever grateful to Dr. Horvath for doing that because it was a point in time where I was lost and struggling.
Continue to: Hitting a stride but facing racism head-on...
Hitting a stride but facing racism head-on
Dr. Levy: You talk about the systemic and pervasive racism that was on the wards when you hit them in fourth year. If you don’t mind sharing just a little bit of that, it would help people reading this to have a better understanding of the kinds of barriers that are out there.
Dr. Johnson: Even when I talk about it today, it bothers me.
I went to medical school in Peoria, Illinois, not far from the home of the Ku Klux Klan. At that time, once you got out of Chicago it was a very brutal place, with systemic racism throughout. I was a young Black kid going through a process that not many young Black kids from the South side of Chicago go through, and you had people who had never seen anyone like me. When I was going through my clinical rotations, I knew what I was up against. I was dressed “to the T” every day, arriving early, leaving late, trying to answer questions. I would look at the evaluations, and they would be disparaging. I would look at my counterparts, how their evaluations were, and how people would respond to them, and it would be completely different.
Surgery was the part of ObGyn that I really grew to love more than anything, even more than obstetrics. When general surgery came, I wanted to take it very seriously and learn as much as I possibly could. From the beginning, I knew there was a problem because the chief resident, an older White man, wouldn’t look me in the eye or talk to me. He would make disparaging remarks. The thing that stuck out in my mind the most was when I was in the operating room transporting patients, just like a medical student did, and he came up behind me and said, “You know, Pierre, this is where a small mind and a strong back come into play.” For me, it took me to a place where I had to corral my emotions and thoughts because I just wanted to lash out and just tell him how racist and horrible that was for him to say that to me. I explained this to the powers that be, the director of the department, and they basically blew it off to the side.
When it came down to the end of the evaluation period, I passed with flying colors. But they gave me an incomplete because of that chief resident and his remarks on my evaluations. He had 3 pages of report about me as a person and as a student. He said that he had difficulty in expressing his opinions about me because of possible cultural biases that he may have had. He put “cultural biases” in an evaluation, and they looked at that and said that was enough for me to have to remediate my time. I was required to do an extra month in Pontiac, Illinois, which is even more rural than Peoria, because of a racist person that did not give me a fair opportunity because I was Black.
Like everything else in life, it was a learning experience. It’s why I fight so hard today. It’s why I’m so passionate about equity, not only in medicine but also in all aspects of society. It shows why we have police brutality and Black men dying in the streets. It shows how this happens because there are cultural and implicit biases that play out in every part of life, and we are not honest about it. Until we are honest about it and until we say that this is happening and there is something that needs to be done to address it, it’s going to continue to happen. That is my fight.
Exposing the unspoken power struggle
Dr. Levy: I couldn’t agree more. Attributing things like that to the individual, where you talk about a White man in power and a power structure that didn’t literally physically beat you but did beat you into submission. You talk about how to succeed in medical school, and how you had to suck it up and submit to something that was incredibly unfair. You understood, you were old enough, mature enough, to understand that if you fought back, you were going to lose. The only opportunity you had was to submit to that inequity and push forward.
Dr. Johnson: When I did try to fight, the chair of the department told me that either I accept the consequences or I would not graduate from medical school and be forced to do another year. That struck a chord with me. I think that happens a lot in our society, and it needs to be exposed.
Past experiences reflected in today’s society
Dr. Levy: Can you talk about what you faced in your ObGyn residency in terms of the systemic pushback, people not taking your orders, people questioning you. I know that I have heard that a great deal, and I experienced that myself as a woman.
Dr. Johnson: We look at the things that are happening now, everything from George Floyd’s murder to Colin Kaepernick taking a knee. These things are 10 years past when I first started residency. The year before I started residency, there was a noose hanging on the capitol lawn of Springfield, Illinois’ capital city. There’s systemic racism and hatred there. When I first started on the wards of my first year of ObGyn, again, I was the very first Black resident of my program’s history. Nobody could relate to me.
I went from a year-long general surgery internship at Washington Hospital Center in Washington, DC, to ObGyn residency. In the first 2 months, there were complaints of, “He’s not answering his pages. He’s not being prompt.” I went to my program director and said, “Listen, I have never had one complaint like this. There’s a problem here. And there’s a problem when I’m on the floor: When trying to give orders to nurses, they’re not taking them. I had to tell a couple of nurses, ‘I’m Dr. Johnson. Don’t call me by my first name, especially not in front of patients.’”
My director was just not hearing me, because the entire scenario was something they had never been exposed to. Systemic racism is real, and unless you experience it, it’s very difficult to accept that it is happening. But biases happen when you are not cognizant. People are used to things a certain way. Things play out in the media that make your mind think a certain way, and you don’t even realize it. You may not even want to be that way.
Continue to: Unconscious bias is a barrier to ensuring equity...
Unconscious bias is a barrier to ensuring equity
Dr. Levy: One very important point you just made is that we as the system need to be able to recognize those unconscious things, the language that we use, the disparaging remarks, the things that put people down, as well as the things that keep people out of promotion.
There are some interesting data about both race and gender and the language that we use when we write recommendations for people, that we do things unconsciously. The big message to all of us at the end is to open our minds to where those things can occur. For myself, professionally, I keep a list of words that I use when I write recommendations. I measure myself to ensure that I am using the same language for men and women, for Black and White. I think we need to overcome the system and the structure to create real equity—not equality but equity.
It begins with being real about the issues
Dr. Johnson: It’s a bigger problem than the existence of bias and racism. I think these are systemic issues that have been cultivated over centuries that have never been addressed. The true issue is that we deny that these are problems and refuse to talk about it because it makes us uncomfortable. To truly make things more equitable, we have to push our levels of comfort to be able to talk about things in a healthy manner, be open and transparent, and to start to understand how we are thinking about certain things. When you can see it, you can start to implement changes and start to change mentalities and thought processes.
For me, people say, “You don’t look like a doctor.” I get that all the time—because I have tattoos and earrings. I wear my hair in a mohawk. The image of what success looks like has been manifested through our media and culture, and it has imprinted on our minds as to how things are supposed to be. If someone doesn’t fit those molds, we start to shun them out, or we start to exhibit biases against those things. What I am trying to do is change that thought process of what a successful or a professional person looks like. It doesn’t have a look. It is not a White or Black thing. It’s an intellect, a mindset, a way of living. You have to treat every person as an individual and take all the biases out of it and understand where they are coming from and what they have to offer to the profession.
Dr. Levy: I personally was so impressed by you when I met you. I was impressed by the tattoos and the earrings, and my initial response to them was exactly that biased, “Oh, who is this person?” I checked that at the door, listened to you, and was really impressed at your surgical skill, your knowledge, your background. I am really grateful that you have been willing to spend the time to share that with everyone.
Dr. Johnson: Thank you for this discussion.
To watch the full interview between Drs. Levy and Johnson, visit: https://www.mdedge.com/obgyn/article/228507/facing-systemic-racism-health-care-inequities-medical-education. ●
- The Pulse of Perseverance:
Three Black Doctors on Their Journey to Success Pierre Johnson, MD; Maxime Madhere, MD; and Joseph Semien Jr, MD - Mindset:
The New Psychology of Success
Carol S. Dweck
Finding inspiration among life’s challenges
Barbara Levy, MD: I am fortunate to have met Pierre serendipitously at a training that we were both attending and was impressed by Dr. Johnson’s life story, his passion and commitment, and his dedication—not only to his personal career but also to raising up other young men of color by trying to break down barriers that face them. His life story highlights those areas of systemic and structural problems that all of us together need to address if we are going to make any progress.
Pierre Johnson, MD: Thank you, Barbara. A little about myself: I am a board-certified ObGyn, and I specialize in minimally invasive surgery. I was born on the South side of Chicago, experiencing gang violence, drugs, and substandard, underserved schools. Long story short, I had a very rough upbringing. I had a single mom and several different issues at home. I am the oldest of 5 siblings, and life was tough.
But I knew that I wanted to do something different with my life. I saw that there was a need in my community as far as health care was concerned, in particular women’s health and childbirth. I knew early on that I wanted to be an ObGyn, and the reason had a lot to do with The Cosby Show. It was the only example of a positive, successful Black man that I saw. No one graduated from college in my family. There weren’t any models of young Black excellence around me. Saying that I wanted to be a doctor planted a seed. I was 9 when my mom became pregnant with my first sibling, and it was fascinating to me. The physiology of pregnancy, and eventually childbirth, was extremely fascinating to me; it set me off on my journey to be an ObGyn.
As I got older, things didn’t get any easier. I went to high school in one of the toughest areas on the South side of Chicago. Gang violence, and violence in and of itself, were all around me, but I was able to stay focused. I went on to Xavier University in Louisiana.
Dr. Levy: There are some important things that I learned from your book and from talking to you at our first meeting. Your mom’s ObGyn, when she was pregnant with your next youngest sibling, was also a Black ObGyn. He took some time to take you under wing?
Dr. Johnson: He did. My mom’s ObGyn was a Black man. Other than The Cosby Show, that’s the only time I saw something like that. When I spoke to him, he really took the time to answer my questions and show me that he was like me; he wasn’t just a far-off mythical person, or something that I could not obtain.
Continue to: Seeing is believing when it comes to success...
Seeing is believing when it comes to success
Dr. Levy: Do you think it was important to have a role model who wasn’t a sports star?
Dr. Johnson: If you can’t see it, you can’t achieve it. He took his time to really talk to me, and it’s the little things for kids that go a long way in their life experience. I still have a relationship with him to this day. How he handled me as a kid made me realize that this is something that I could do. That was extremely important for me.
Dr. Levy: One of the structural things I think we need to point out is that the ability to see yourself as someone successful is critical. When we see 1,000 images a day and they are all White, and they are all so different from where we are that it gets incorporated into our sense of being. I think that’s really difficult for those of us of with privilege to understand what that privilege is.
Dr. Johnson: Absolutely, and I’ll even go further. In residency, 2 White females were my classmates, and both of their parents were doctors. They had grandparents who were doctors. My mom was addicted to drugs; my father was not around. They had been talking medicine since they were 5. You have to make things equitable, but in medicine it’s really not equitable. In medicine, what we don’t realize is that there is an importance for all aspects of someone’s upbringing and environment, and it’s not just what they can regurgitate on a standardized test. If a patient can’t relate to you and tell you what is wrong with them, how can you adequately treat them?
Dr. Levy: Even if they are trying to tell me, but I can’t hear it because I don’t have the language and I don’t have the background. There are really good data to show, in fact, that Black male physicians do a better job at engaging Black men to manage their hypertension.1 When we look at the inequities in birth outcomes for women of color, indigenous women and Black women, there’s evidence that providers who come from a similar background do a better job.
Dr. Johnson: There was the study of Black infants that just came out about them dying at a 3-time higher rate in non-Black physicians’ hands.2 These things need to be recognized. They need to be discussed, and they need to be identified as issues and then, realistically, we need to start talking about solutions, not get offended by what actual statistics are saying.
Foundational inequities in education
Dr. Levy: To address some of the barriers that you faced: I know that you went to a high school that was not geared toward pushing students into professional careers. Your colleagues, however, had educations that prepared them for the standardized tests and other things that they would face academically.
Dr. Johnson: People think I am kidding when I say it, but when I went into college, I didn’t know what a periodic table was. I saw it, but I had no idea what these things meant. I didn’t have any sciences or any AP classes in high school. I did well, but grades are smoke and mirrors. The true test of medicine comes with testing. From the MCATs to the boards, every step of the way there is a standardized test.
Knowledge is something that you can obtain, but test taking is a cultivated skill that happens from a very early age. Trying to teach an adult or someone in their late teens a skill that they should have learned as a kid is difficult. For me, I did not have that, so I had to program myself. I had to learn how to fundamentally take tests as an adult, where most people understand how to do that going into college and professional school.
Dr. Levy: I was impressed with your resilience. I think all of us as human beings, if we fail a test, we take it personally and think it’s about our lack of knowledge. One of the insights that you came to was that failure on those things was not that you didn’t study hard enough. In fact, you probably studied 4 times harder than most other people. You had the knowledge. Being able to get that knowledge into a standardized structured test score was the huge challenge for you.
Dr. Johnson: That’s it. I can remember taking the MCAT, and if you looked at the step 1 book, I could regurgitate to you everything on that page. However, it’s not a test about do you know it or not. It’s an understanding of the English language and how to break things down to make things fit into particular scenarios.
Continue to: A college experience focused on growth and exposure...
A college experience focused on growth and exposure
Dr. Levy: I was impressed by the distinction between your experience at Xavier University where there was a lot of support and guidance and help in your premed program, and what happened to you when you hit medical school.
Dr. Johnson: Xavier University in Louisiana is the number 1 institution in the country for getting minorities into professional school. They understand that they have kids that are brilliant but underprepared, and just have not had the background to actually tackle some of these tough curriculums. I always had good grades in school. But by not being challenged, I didn’t know what I didn’t really know. So now that I was seeing biology, chemistry for the first time, and trying to tackle it; there’s a failure point. I didn’t know how to take tests, and I didn’t know how to study properly. The harder I tried, the worse things got for me.
Xavier has seen that story a multitude of times. If I went to a bigger or predominantly White university, a counselor would have told me, “Well, medicine’s maybe not for you. You can’t handle a premed curriculum.” Instead, I said, “Listen, I’m studying. I’m doing all of these things, and I’m not hacking it.” And they broke it down: “Let’s get you into study groups with kids that have had these type of AP classes before. We’ll have you watch how they study,” and everything started to click. That facilitation of how to adjust to this curriculum was a godsend. It’s the only reason I’m here. I am a prime example of being brilliant enough to be able to do it, but needing the infrastructure and a system set up.
Dr. Levy: There’s a great book by Carol Dweck called Mindset that talks about education of young kids and putting them into silos so early in life; the brilliant kids go into the AP courses and the rest are labeled as inadequate. It’s assumed in a fixed mindset based on their heredity and IQ, and not based on the fact that they have not been exposed to the right things.
Xavier was growing you into the man who could, in fact, do all of those things. I think that is one of the systemic and structural issues that we have—that fixed mindset that frames a kid who is not succeeding as therefore unable to succeed, as opposed to framing that child as not having the correct tools.
New tribulations of medical school
Dr. Johnson: Absolutely. I think what Xavier did for me is to at least let me understand what I needed to do, how to comprehend and retain information, which I never had been exposed to before. Those years were very important to establishing a foundation. When going to medical school, it was like, “There’s no more excuses. What could be the problem now?” Well, now let’s talk about taking tests—a whole different skill. Xavier focused on getting me to understand how to structure my thought process and knowledge base. In medical school I had to apply those skills (because if you can’t apply them, there’s no fit).
My second through fourth year of medical school, I was the only African-American kid in my class. I was spending 20-hour days sometimes just studying, trying to overcompensate by knowing as much as I possibly could and thinking that would propel me from the test-taking standpoint. Even though I didn’t have a lot of classmates in medical school that looked like me, I did have mentors that looked similarly, who really saw potential in me. Dr. Frederick Horvath, a nephrologist in Peoria said, “What are you doing? I want you to get out of these books, and let’s go out to lunch.”
He ended up buying me some instrumental books, really talked to me, listening to my background and understanding how driven I was as a person. He took me under his wing for the rest of medical school and said, “This is how you navigate through these spaces. Yes, you need to have a fund of knowledge to be able to take these tests, but you need to start understanding how to apply it to these questions.” I’m forever grateful to Dr. Horvath for doing that because it was a point in time where I was lost and struggling.
Continue to: Hitting a stride but facing racism head-on...
Hitting a stride but facing racism head-on
Dr. Levy: You talk about the systemic and pervasive racism that was on the wards when you hit them in fourth year. If you don’t mind sharing just a little bit of that, it would help people reading this to have a better understanding of the kinds of barriers that are out there.
Dr. Johnson: Even when I talk about it today, it bothers me.
I went to medical school in Peoria, Illinois, not far from the home of the Ku Klux Klan. At that time, once you got out of Chicago it was a very brutal place, with systemic racism throughout. I was a young Black kid going through a process that not many young Black kids from the South side of Chicago go through, and you had people who had never seen anyone like me. When I was going through my clinical rotations, I knew what I was up against. I was dressed “to the T” every day, arriving early, leaving late, trying to answer questions. I would look at the evaluations, and they would be disparaging. I would look at my counterparts, how their evaluations were, and how people would respond to them, and it would be completely different.
Surgery was the part of ObGyn that I really grew to love more than anything, even more than obstetrics. When general surgery came, I wanted to take it very seriously and learn as much as I possibly could. From the beginning, I knew there was a problem because the chief resident, an older White man, wouldn’t look me in the eye or talk to me. He would make disparaging remarks. The thing that stuck out in my mind the most was when I was in the operating room transporting patients, just like a medical student did, and he came up behind me and said, “You know, Pierre, this is where a small mind and a strong back come into play.” For me, it took me to a place where I had to corral my emotions and thoughts because I just wanted to lash out and just tell him how racist and horrible that was for him to say that to me. I explained this to the powers that be, the director of the department, and they basically blew it off to the side.
When it came down to the end of the evaluation period, I passed with flying colors. But they gave me an incomplete because of that chief resident and his remarks on my evaluations. He had 3 pages of report about me as a person and as a student. He said that he had difficulty in expressing his opinions about me because of possible cultural biases that he may have had. He put “cultural biases” in an evaluation, and they looked at that and said that was enough for me to have to remediate my time. I was required to do an extra month in Pontiac, Illinois, which is even more rural than Peoria, because of a racist person that did not give me a fair opportunity because I was Black.
Like everything else in life, it was a learning experience. It’s why I fight so hard today. It’s why I’m so passionate about equity, not only in medicine but also in all aspects of society. It shows why we have police brutality and Black men dying in the streets. It shows how this happens because there are cultural and implicit biases that play out in every part of life, and we are not honest about it. Until we are honest about it and until we say that this is happening and there is something that needs to be done to address it, it’s going to continue to happen. That is my fight.
Exposing the unspoken power struggle
Dr. Levy: I couldn’t agree more. Attributing things like that to the individual, where you talk about a White man in power and a power structure that didn’t literally physically beat you but did beat you into submission. You talk about how to succeed in medical school, and how you had to suck it up and submit to something that was incredibly unfair. You understood, you were old enough, mature enough, to understand that if you fought back, you were going to lose. The only opportunity you had was to submit to that inequity and push forward.
Dr. Johnson: When I did try to fight, the chair of the department told me that either I accept the consequences or I would not graduate from medical school and be forced to do another year. That struck a chord with me. I think that happens a lot in our society, and it needs to be exposed.
Past experiences reflected in today’s society
Dr. Levy: Can you talk about what you faced in your ObGyn residency in terms of the systemic pushback, people not taking your orders, people questioning you. I know that I have heard that a great deal, and I experienced that myself as a woman.
Dr. Johnson: We look at the things that are happening now, everything from George Floyd’s murder to Colin Kaepernick taking a knee. These things are 10 years past when I first started residency. The year before I started residency, there was a noose hanging on the capitol lawn of Springfield, Illinois’ capital city. There’s systemic racism and hatred there. When I first started on the wards of my first year of ObGyn, again, I was the very first Black resident of my program’s history. Nobody could relate to me.
I went from a year-long general surgery internship at Washington Hospital Center in Washington, DC, to ObGyn residency. In the first 2 months, there were complaints of, “He’s not answering his pages. He’s not being prompt.” I went to my program director and said, “Listen, I have never had one complaint like this. There’s a problem here. And there’s a problem when I’m on the floor: When trying to give orders to nurses, they’re not taking them. I had to tell a couple of nurses, ‘I’m Dr. Johnson. Don’t call me by my first name, especially not in front of patients.’”
My director was just not hearing me, because the entire scenario was something they had never been exposed to. Systemic racism is real, and unless you experience it, it’s very difficult to accept that it is happening. But biases happen when you are not cognizant. People are used to things a certain way. Things play out in the media that make your mind think a certain way, and you don’t even realize it. You may not even want to be that way.
Continue to: Unconscious bias is a barrier to ensuring equity...
Unconscious bias is a barrier to ensuring equity
Dr. Levy: One very important point you just made is that we as the system need to be able to recognize those unconscious things, the language that we use, the disparaging remarks, the things that put people down, as well as the things that keep people out of promotion.
There are some interesting data about both race and gender and the language that we use when we write recommendations for people, that we do things unconsciously. The big message to all of us at the end is to open our minds to where those things can occur. For myself, professionally, I keep a list of words that I use when I write recommendations. I measure myself to ensure that I am using the same language for men and women, for Black and White. I think we need to overcome the system and the structure to create real equity—not equality but equity.
It begins with being real about the issues
Dr. Johnson: It’s a bigger problem than the existence of bias and racism. I think these are systemic issues that have been cultivated over centuries that have never been addressed. The true issue is that we deny that these are problems and refuse to talk about it because it makes us uncomfortable. To truly make things more equitable, we have to push our levels of comfort to be able to talk about things in a healthy manner, be open and transparent, and to start to understand how we are thinking about certain things. When you can see it, you can start to implement changes and start to change mentalities and thought processes.
For me, people say, “You don’t look like a doctor.” I get that all the time—because I have tattoos and earrings. I wear my hair in a mohawk. The image of what success looks like has been manifested through our media and culture, and it has imprinted on our minds as to how things are supposed to be. If someone doesn’t fit those molds, we start to shun them out, or we start to exhibit biases against those things. What I am trying to do is change that thought process of what a successful or a professional person looks like. It doesn’t have a look. It is not a White or Black thing. It’s an intellect, a mindset, a way of living. You have to treat every person as an individual and take all the biases out of it and understand where they are coming from and what they have to offer to the profession.
Dr. Levy: I personally was so impressed by you when I met you. I was impressed by the tattoos and the earrings, and my initial response to them was exactly that biased, “Oh, who is this person?” I checked that at the door, listened to you, and was really impressed at your surgical skill, your knowledge, your background. I am really grateful that you have been willing to spend the time to share that with everyone.
Dr. Johnson: Thank you for this discussion.
To watch the full interview between Drs. Levy and Johnson, visit: https://www.mdedge.com/obgyn/article/228507/facing-systemic-racism-health-care-inequities-medical-education. ●
- The Pulse of Perseverance:
Three Black Doctors on Their Journey to Success Pierre Johnson, MD; Maxime Madhere, MD; and Joseph Semien Jr, MD - Mindset:
The New Psychology of Success
Carol S. Dweck
- Benkert R, Peters R, Tate N, et al. Trust of nurse practitioners and physicians among African Americans with hypertension. J Am Acad Nurse Pract. 2008;20:273-280.
- Greenwood BN, Hardeman RR, Huang L, et al. Physician– patient racial concordance and disparities in birthing mortality for newborns. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2020; 117:21194-21200.
- Benkert R, Peters R, Tate N, et al. Trust of nurse practitioners and physicians among African Americans with hypertension. J Am Acad Nurse Pract. 2008;20:273-280.
- Greenwood BN, Hardeman RR, Huang L, et al. Physician– patient racial concordance and disparities in birthing mortality for newborns. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2020; 117:21194-21200.
Facing systemic racism in health care: Inequities in medical education
Resources:
- The Pulse of Perseverance: Three Black Doctors on Their Journey to Success
Pierre Johnson, MD; Maxime Madhere, MD, Joseph Semien Jr, MD - Mindset: The New Psychology of Success
Carol S. Dweck
Resources:
- The Pulse of Perseverance: Three Black Doctors on Their Journey to Success
Pierre Johnson, MD; Maxime Madhere, MD, Joseph Semien Jr, MD - Mindset: The New Psychology of Success
Carol S. Dweck
Resources:
- The Pulse of Perseverance: Three Black Doctors on Their Journey to Success
Pierre Johnson, MD; Maxime Madhere, MD, Joseph Semien Jr, MD - Mindset: The New Psychology of Success
Carol S. Dweck