User login
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Matthew F. Watto, MD: Welcome back to The Curbsiders. I’m Dr. Matthew Frank Watto, here with my great friend and America’s primary care physician, Dr. Paul Nelson Williams. Paul, are you ready to talk about anxiety?
Paul N. Williams, MD: Always. It’s one of my favorite topics.
Dr. Watto: We had a great guest for this podcast on anxiety — Dr. Jessi Gold, who gave us a lot of practical tips. The way she talks to her patients about anxiety is really useful. When patients say “my anxiety” or “I feel anxious,” she considers that a symptom. Anxiety can be a diagnosis or a symptom. You need to clarify what they mean when they refer to their anxiety and dig into how it affects their life.
We asked her about the Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD)-7 score. Like most of the experts we’ve talked to, she’s internalized that, so she doesn’t need to rely on a questionnaire. But I still rely on a questionnaire when I’m taking a history for anxiety.
We also asked her how she explains anxiety to patients. I don’t know about you, Paul, but I’ve never really thought about explaining to patients why they have anxiety.
Dr. Williams: I’ve done my best to try to normalize it, but I haven’t actually talked to patients about the evolutionary advantage of anxiety.
Dr. Watto: She frames it to patients this way: As we were evolving, it was somewhat of an advantage to be hypervigilant, to have some anxiety and a healthy amount of fear so that you weren’t killed or eaten. But now, in the modern world, anxiety isn’t playing to our advantage. Anxiety is not making them safer; it’s making their lives worse. She explains to patients that she’s trying to help them overcome that.
In terms of pharmacotherapy for anxiety, I always think about SSRIs as one of the first steps. Why not use an SNRI as first-line treatment?
Dr. Williams: I was glad we had this conversation because I feel, for whatever reason, a bit more comfortable treating depression than anxiety. In any case, Dr. Gold reaches for the SSRI first, in part because getting off an SNRI (for example, to switch to something else) can be absolutely miserable. The discontinuation effects can be severe enough to have to bridge some patients with a benzodiazepine to get them fully off the SNRI. So, an SNRI is not the first drug you should necessarily reach for.
She thinks about using an SNRI if she has tried a couple of SSRIs that have been ineffective, or if the patient has a comorbid condition that might also benefit from the SNRI in the same way that you might use a tricyclic antidepressant in the patient with both migraines and anxiety. An SNRI might be a good medication to consider in the patient with neuropathic pain and anxiety but rarely as a first-line treatment, because if it doesn’t work out, getting the patient off that medication can be a challenge.
Dr. Watto: She mentioned venlafaxine as being especially difficult to get people off of. I’ve heard that bupropion should never be used in anxiety, and if you give it, you are a terrible doctor. What did we learn about that?
Dr. Williams: It’s a drug I’ve hesitated to prescribe to patients with anxiety or even comorbid anxiety. I’m a little bit nervous for someone who has depression and anxiety to prescribe bupropion because it can be activating and make things worse. But Dr. Gold says that she has seen bupropion work for some patients so she will consider it, especially for patients who don’t want to gain weight, or for whom sexual side effects would be bothersome. So, it’s not always the wrong answer. In her expert opinion, you can try it and see how the patient responds, using shared decision-making and letting the patient know that they may not tolerate it as well as other medications.
Dr. Watto: She sees a lot of younger people — students, working professionals — who do not want to gain weight, and that’s understandable. She will tell patients, “We can try bupropion, but if you get more anxious, we might not be able to continue it. We might have to use one of the first-line agents instead.”
Dr. Williams: We talked about mirtazapine as well. She tells patients they are going to gain weight with it. You have to have that conversation with the patient to see whether that is something they are willing to tolerate. If so, mirtazapine might be worth a try, but you have to be upfront about the potential side effects and know what the medications you’re prescribing will do to patients.
Dr. Watto: We asked her about benzodiazepines. For as-needed medication for people who are experiencing panic or anxiety attacks, she prescribes propranolol 10-20 mg twice a day as needed, which is a low dose. In primary care, we use higher doses for migraine prophylaxis.
She uses propranolol because for some patients, it’s the physical symptoms of anxiety that are bothering them. She can calm down the physical symptoms with that and get by without needing to use a benzodiazepine.
But what about thoughts that make people anxious? Can we change people’s thoughts with medication?
Dr. Williams: Dr. Gold made the point that we can medicate away insomnia, for the most part. We can medicate away the physical symptoms of anxiety, which can be really bothersome. But we can’t medicate away thoughts and thought patterns. You can make patients feel better with medications, but you may not be able to get rid of the persistent bothersome thoughts. That’s where cognitive-behavioral therapy can be especially helpful. Most of these patients would benefit from therapy.
Dr. Watto: I completely agree with that. We talked about so many great things with Dr. Gold, but we can’t recap all of it here. Please click on this link to hear the full podcast episode.
Dr. Watto is Clinical Assistant Professor, Department of Medicine, Perelman School of Medicine at University of Pennsylvania; Internist, Department of Medicine, Hospital Medicine Section, Pennsylvania Hospital, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He has disclosed no relevant financial relationships. Dr. Williams is Associate Professor of Clinical Medicine, Department of General Internal Medicine, Lewis Katz School of Medicine; Staff Physician, Department of General Internal Medicine, Temple Internal Medicine Associates, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He disclosed receiving income from The Curbsiders. The Curbsiders is an internal medicine podcast, in which three board-certified internists interview experts on clinically important topics. In a collaboration with Medscape, the Curbsiders share clinical pearls and practice-changing knowledge from selected podcasts.
A version of this article appeared on Medscape.com.
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Matthew F. Watto, MD: Welcome back to The Curbsiders. I’m Dr. Matthew Frank Watto, here with my great friend and America’s primary care physician, Dr. Paul Nelson Williams. Paul, are you ready to talk about anxiety?
Paul N. Williams, MD: Always. It’s one of my favorite topics.
Dr. Watto: We had a great guest for this podcast on anxiety — Dr. Jessi Gold, who gave us a lot of practical tips. The way she talks to her patients about anxiety is really useful. When patients say “my anxiety” or “I feel anxious,” she considers that a symptom. Anxiety can be a diagnosis or a symptom. You need to clarify what they mean when they refer to their anxiety and dig into how it affects their life.
We asked her about the Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD)-7 score. Like most of the experts we’ve talked to, she’s internalized that, so she doesn’t need to rely on a questionnaire. But I still rely on a questionnaire when I’m taking a history for anxiety.
We also asked her how she explains anxiety to patients. I don’t know about you, Paul, but I’ve never really thought about explaining to patients why they have anxiety.
Dr. Williams: I’ve done my best to try to normalize it, but I haven’t actually talked to patients about the evolutionary advantage of anxiety.
Dr. Watto: She frames it to patients this way: As we were evolving, it was somewhat of an advantage to be hypervigilant, to have some anxiety and a healthy amount of fear so that you weren’t killed or eaten. But now, in the modern world, anxiety isn’t playing to our advantage. Anxiety is not making them safer; it’s making their lives worse. She explains to patients that she’s trying to help them overcome that.
In terms of pharmacotherapy for anxiety, I always think about SSRIs as one of the first steps. Why not use an SNRI as first-line treatment?
Dr. Williams: I was glad we had this conversation because I feel, for whatever reason, a bit more comfortable treating depression than anxiety. In any case, Dr. Gold reaches for the SSRI first, in part because getting off an SNRI (for example, to switch to something else) can be absolutely miserable. The discontinuation effects can be severe enough to have to bridge some patients with a benzodiazepine to get them fully off the SNRI. So, an SNRI is not the first drug you should necessarily reach for.
She thinks about using an SNRI if she has tried a couple of SSRIs that have been ineffective, or if the patient has a comorbid condition that might also benefit from the SNRI in the same way that you might use a tricyclic antidepressant in the patient with both migraines and anxiety. An SNRI might be a good medication to consider in the patient with neuropathic pain and anxiety but rarely as a first-line treatment, because if it doesn’t work out, getting the patient off that medication can be a challenge.
Dr. Watto: She mentioned venlafaxine as being especially difficult to get people off of. I’ve heard that bupropion should never be used in anxiety, and if you give it, you are a terrible doctor. What did we learn about that?
Dr. Williams: It’s a drug I’ve hesitated to prescribe to patients with anxiety or even comorbid anxiety. I’m a little bit nervous for someone who has depression and anxiety to prescribe bupropion because it can be activating and make things worse. But Dr. Gold says that she has seen bupropion work for some patients so she will consider it, especially for patients who don’t want to gain weight, or for whom sexual side effects would be bothersome. So, it’s not always the wrong answer. In her expert opinion, you can try it and see how the patient responds, using shared decision-making and letting the patient know that they may not tolerate it as well as other medications.
Dr. Watto: She sees a lot of younger people — students, working professionals — who do not want to gain weight, and that’s understandable. She will tell patients, “We can try bupropion, but if you get more anxious, we might not be able to continue it. We might have to use one of the first-line agents instead.”
Dr. Williams: We talked about mirtazapine as well. She tells patients they are going to gain weight with it. You have to have that conversation with the patient to see whether that is something they are willing to tolerate. If so, mirtazapine might be worth a try, but you have to be upfront about the potential side effects and know what the medications you’re prescribing will do to patients.
Dr. Watto: We asked her about benzodiazepines. For as-needed medication for people who are experiencing panic or anxiety attacks, she prescribes propranolol 10-20 mg twice a day as needed, which is a low dose. In primary care, we use higher doses for migraine prophylaxis.
She uses propranolol because for some patients, it’s the physical symptoms of anxiety that are bothering them. She can calm down the physical symptoms with that and get by without needing to use a benzodiazepine.
But what about thoughts that make people anxious? Can we change people’s thoughts with medication?
Dr. Williams: Dr. Gold made the point that we can medicate away insomnia, for the most part. We can medicate away the physical symptoms of anxiety, which can be really bothersome. But we can’t medicate away thoughts and thought patterns. You can make patients feel better with medications, but you may not be able to get rid of the persistent bothersome thoughts. That’s where cognitive-behavioral therapy can be especially helpful. Most of these patients would benefit from therapy.
Dr. Watto: I completely agree with that. We talked about so many great things with Dr. Gold, but we can’t recap all of it here. Please click on this link to hear the full podcast episode.
Dr. Watto is Clinical Assistant Professor, Department of Medicine, Perelman School of Medicine at University of Pennsylvania; Internist, Department of Medicine, Hospital Medicine Section, Pennsylvania Hospital, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He has disclosed no relevant financial relationships. Dr. Williams is Associate Professor of Clinical Medicine, Department of General Internal Medicine, Lewis Katz School of Medicine; Staff Physician, Department of General Internal Medicine, Temple Internal Medicine Associates, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He disclosed receiving income from The Curbsiders. The Curbsiders is an internal medicine podcast, in which three board-certified internists interview experts on clinically important topics. In a collaboration with Medscape, the Curbsiders share clinical pearls and practice-changing knowledge from selected podcasts.
A version of this article appeared on Medscape.com.
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Matthew F. Watto, MD: Welcome back to The Curbsiders. I’m Dr. Matthew Frank Watto, here with my great friend and America’s primary care physician, Dr. Paul Nelson Williams. Paul, are you ready to talk about anxiety?
Paul N. Williams, MD: Always. It’s one of my favorite topics.
Dr. Watto: We had a great guest for this podcast on anxiety — Dr. Jessi Gold, who gave us a lot of practical tips. The way she talks to her patients about anxiety is really useful. When patients say “my anxiety” or “I feel anxious,” she considers that a symptom. Anxiety can be a diagnosis or a symptom. You need to clarify what they mean when they refer to their anxiety and dig into how it affects their life.
We asked her about the Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD)-7 score. Like most of the experts we’ve talked to, she’s internalized that, so she doesn’t need to rely on a questionnaire. But I still rely on a questionnaire when I’m taking a history for anxiety.
We also asked her how she explains anxiety to patients. I don’t know about you, Paul, but I’ve never really thought about explaining to patients why they have anxiety.
Dr. Williams: I’ve done my best to try to normalize it, but I haven’t actually talked to patients about the evolutionary advantage of anxiety.
Dr. Watto: She frames it to patients this way: As we were evolving, it was somewhat of an advantage to be hypervigilant, to have some anxiety and a healthy amount of fear so that you weren’t killed or eaten. But now, in the modern world, anxiety isn’t playing to our advantage. Anxiety is not making them safer; it’s making their lives worse. She explains to patients that she’s trying to help them overcome that.
In terms of pharmacotherapy for anxiety, I always think about SSRIs as one of the first steps. Why not use an SNRI as first-line treatment?
Dr. Williams: I was glad we had this conversation because I feel, for whatever reason, a bit more comfortable treating depression than anxiety. In any case, Dr. Gold reaches for the SSRI first, in part because getting off an SNRI (for example, to switch to something else) can be absolutely miserable. The discontinuation effects can be severe enough to have to bridge some patients with a benzodiazepine to get them fully off the SNRI. So, an SNRI is not the first drug you should necessarily reach for.
She thinks about using an SNRI if she has tried a couple of SSRIs that have been ineffective, or if the patient has a comorbid condition that might also benefit from the SNRI in the same way that you might use a tricyclic antidepressant in the patient with both migraines and anxiety. An SNRI might be a good medication to consider in the patient with neuropathic pain and anxiety but rarely as a first-line treatment, because if it doesn’t work out, getting the patient off that medication can be a challenge.
Dr. Watto: She mentioned venlafaxine as being especially difficult to get people off of. I’ve heard that bupropion should never be used in anxiety, and if you give it, you are a terrible doctor. What did we learn about that?
Dr. Williams: It’s a drug I’ve hesitated to prescribe to patients with anxiety or even comorbid anxiety. I’m a little bit nervous for someone who has depression and anxiety to prescribe bupropion because it can be activating and make things worse. But Dr. Gold says that she has seen bupropion work for some patients so she will consider it, especially for patients who don’t want to gain weight, or for whom sexual side effects would be bothersome. So, it’s not always the wrong answer. In her expert opinion, you can try it and see how the patient responds, using shared decision-making and letting the patient know that they may not tolerate it as well as other medications.
Dr. Watto: She sees a lot of younger people — students, working professionals — who do not want to gain weight, and that’s understandable. She will tell patients, “We can try bupropion, but if you get more anxious, we might not be able to continue it. We might have to use one of the first-line agents instead.”
Dr. Williams: We talked about mirtazapine as well. She tells patients they are going to gain weight with it. You have to have that conversation with the patient to see whether that is something they are willing to tolerate. If so, mirtazapine might be worth a try, but you have to be upfront about the potential side effects and know what the medications you’re prescribing will do to patients.
Dr. Watto: We asked her about benzodiazepines. For as-needed medication for people who are experiencing panic or anxiety attacks, she prescribes propranolol 10-20 mg twice a day as needed, which is a low dose. In primary care, we use higher doses for migraine prophylaxis.
She uses propranolol because for some patients, it’s the physical symptoms of anxiety that are bothering them. She can calm down the physical symptoms with that and get by without needing to use a benzodiazepine.
But what about thoughts that make people anxious? Can we change people’s thoughts with medication?
Dr. Williams: Dr. Gold made the point that we can medicate away insomnia, for the most part. We can medicate away the physical symptoms of anxiety, which can be really bothersome. But we can’t medicate away thoughts and thought patterns. You can make patients feel better with medications, but you may not be able to get rid of the persistent bothersome thoughts. That’s where cognitive-behavioral therapy can be especially helpful. Most of these patients would benefit from therapy.
Dr. Watto: I completely agree with that. We talked about so many great things with Dr. Gold, but we can’t recap all of it here. Please click on this link to hear the full podcast episode.
Dr. Watto is Clinical Assistant Professor, Department of Medicine, Perelman School of Medicine at University of Pennsylvania; Internist, Department of Medicine, Hospital Medicine Section, Pennsylvania Hospital, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He has disclosed no relevant financial relationships. Dr. Williams is Associate Professor of Clinical Medicine, Department of General Internal Medicine, Lewis Katz School of Medicine; Staff Physician, Department of General Internal Medicine, Temple Internal Medicine Associates, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He disclosed receiving income from The Curbsiders. The Curbsiders is an internal medicine podcast, in which three board-certified internists interview experts on clinically important topics. In a collaboration with Medscape, the Curbsiders share clinical pearls and practice-changing knowledge from selected podcasts.
A version of this article appeared on Medscape.com.