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This interview was recorded Dec. 8, 2023. The transcript has been edited for clarity.
Kathrin LaFaver, MD: I have the pleasure of talking with Dr. Elizabeth Loder today. Dr. Loder is the vice chair of academic affairs in the department of neurology and a staff physician at Graham Headache Center at Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston. She’s also a professor of neurology at Harvard Medical School and has been a mentor to many headache specialists in the field.
We’ll be talking about the topic of sexism in medicine.
Elizabeth W. Loder, MD, MPH: Thank you so much, Dr. LaFaver. I’m very pleased to be here to talk about something that I think is very important.
Dr. LaFaver: Dr. Loder, you were a speaker at our Women in Neurology third annual conference in Florida, giving a talk on this very topic, sexism in medicine. It was very helpful, especially for many younger women entering the field of neurology, to hear that some of the experiences they’re having are not unique to them, but unfortunately remain a more systemic issue.
To get us started, could you define sexism in medicine for us, and how you got interested in this topic?
Sexism Can Be Subtle
Dr. Loder: You’re absolutely right. It’s nice for women, particularly those entering the field, to know that they’re not alone.
What is sexism? Well, it’s generally considered to be prejudice or discrimination against someone based on their sex or gender. One thing that’s important to remember is it’s not always extremely obvious. It’s not always intentional. I think most of us, I’d include myself in that, have sexist views. We may not always be aware of them. This is part of the unconscious bias that many of us have been trained to think.
As one example, we’re socialized — or I certainly was — to think of doctors as male. When a patient says, “I saw a cardiologist,” in my mind, I think that that person might have been male. Sometimes, I will ask, “What did he say?” That’s an example of sexism.
Sexism can be internalized. It can come from any source. We’re all implicated in it. I think that’s very important to remember. This is not a case of them doing something to us. This is something that is much more widespread and engendered in the society that we live in.
Dr. LaFaver: I think that’s really important to realize. Could you mention some other examples, specifically in the field of neurology, that you have encountered?
Dr. Loder: Certainly, looking over my own career — and I’m at a point now where I can look at early, mid, and late career — things were, of course, very different when I began. I would say that sexism was much more overt.
Very early in my career, I experienced a large amount of hostility from a boss. I ended up having to leave. This was, I believe, based on my sex. It turned out that leaving was a good thing for me, but it was a very unpleasant experience.
I also became a leader in my professional society. During my path to leadership and seeing other women attempt to make progress within the organization, I certainly saw behavior that I would characterize as rooted in sexism. To its credit, though, the professional society to which I belong, I think, has become one of the most progressive societies out there. The women within have been able to affect quite a bit of change in that professional organization.
I dealt with a case of sexual harassment in my own division when I was a division chief, which gave me insight into institutional policies and procedures meant to deal with situations like that, which, I think, leave something to be desired. That’s changing.
Now, I work in academic affairs, and I see how likely or unlikely people, based on their sex, are to put themselves forward for promotion, how likely they are to believe in their own capabilities. I also work as a medical journal editor, and I see generally that women are more hesitant to proclaim themselves experts and to accept invitations to provide or write editorial commentary. Sometimes, they do not perceive themselves as being expert enough to do so. I have seen many of these things over my career.
Dr. LaFaver: Thank you for sharing. I think it’s important to realize that it›s not just unidirectional but sometimes affects women and kind of goes both ways.
As you mentioned, these issues are not always overt. In recent years, microaggressions has become more of a term that has been used. Could you talk a bit about that? What are the microaggressions and how do they affect women?
Microaggressions and Migraine Mavens
Dr. Loder: The term microaggression has become very popular, and I think many people find it somewhat irritating. That, to me, is inherent in what a microaggression is. Microaggressions, by definition, are small things. It’s hard to prove that they were rooted in sexism. Sometimes, there’s a large amount of ambiguity about it. It can be as simple as inviting a pregnant woman to sit down because you perceive that she needs to sit, commenting on somebody’s shoes, or things like that.
Often, they’re unintentional. Sometimes, they come from a place of what we might term benevolent sexism, people trying to be helpful to a woman because they perceive that she’s weaker or she might not be able to do something, or maybe she has family responsibilities. They think that they’re being helpful. These things happen when we perceive people to be different in some way, as women are perceived to be different in terms of their responsibilities in the home or different in terms of what we expect from them in the workplace.
The problem with microaggressions is because they’re small, each one of them, I think the temptation is often to say, “Oh you know, they didn’t mean it. It’s not that big a deal. It was just a comment on your shoes.” If a woman brings that up, she’s often made to feel, sometimes by other women, that she should just chill out. This isn’t a big deal.
The problem is that they may not be a big deal in and of themselves, but when they are repeated over a long period of time, they can really sap somebody’s confidence in herself, make her question her own competence, and can have a cumulative effect that is very negative.
Although I think many people are skeptical about microaggressions as an important contribution to how women do in the workplace and in other settings, they are, in my opinion, important. I’ll just emphasize again that they come from everywhere, including other women and colleagues who mean to be helpful.
Dr. LaFaver: I know you have led a team of headache specialists and wrote a fantastic article about navigating sexism at work and what not to say to your female colleagues. Could you share some tips for them to navigate sexism at work and, specifically, as it applies to our careers in medicine.
Dr. Loder: Thank you for calling out that article. It actually grew organically out of a Facebook group that I started called Migraine Mavens. I’ve worked in the headache field throughout my career, and I experienced something that, to me, was kind of discouraging that I felt was sexist within our field. I just thought, What can I do? I thought, Well, maybe there’s some strength to be had in sharing this with other women, and maybe we should have our own social media community, so I formed this group.
After I gave a talk at the American Headache Society about sexism in the headache field, one of the members sent me a message saying, “Your talk was very timely. Immediately after you gave this talk, somebody stopped me in the hall and said, ‘Congratulations on your leadership position in the society, but are you really sure you can do this because you’ve got young children at home?’ Your talk was very needed.”
People started just discussing within the group, “Oh, this happened to me,” “That happened to me.” We began to brainstorm what we could have done differently. When these things happen, people are not necessarily prepared for them, and later on, you lie awake thinking of what you could have said.
We decided to write a paper. It ended up being published in The Journal of Head and Face Pain, and it was based on real vignettes from people in the group. We anonymized them so that people would not recognize themselves necessarily, but they’re all real. They’re things that really happened to women in the group.
We first describe the vignette — what happened. Then we explain, for those who need the explanation, what’s wrong with it. Why is it wrong to tell somebody to smile, for example. What could you do differently? What could somebody who sees this happen do, the so-called bystander or upstander? If you witness something like that, can you help the person toward whom this problematic behavior is directed? We came up with some examples. The all-purpose thing is to say, “What did you just say?” Make them repeat it, which often helps people to realize how inappropriate it is.
This got published as an article. It became quite the subject of attention on X [formerly Twitter] and elsewhere. I guess the term going viral would apply to this. It included a large amount of real-world advice. The thing I really loved about it was that it was written by the women in the group who had experienced these things. I would characterize it as having been somewhat therapeutic. We got many messages from women in other disciplines, outside medicine, saying that this happens in oceanography, for example. I think what we described really resonated beyond the field of headache medicine and neurology.
Institutional Sexism
Dr. LaFaver: Looking beyond the individual person, do you have any recommendations for medical institutions to share in order to do better and maybe create an environment that is less sexist?
Dr. Loder: Yes. I think many institutions try to deal with the problem of lack of diversity, whether it›s women or other underrepresented groups, by hiring. That’s one way to go about it, but I think retention strategies are also very important, and they need to pay attention to the work environment.
Every institution now has guidelines about harassment, bullying, sexism, racism, and so on. In general though — and I’m not speaking about any particular institution — these policies and procedures are often crafted with an eye toward protecting the institution. I would advise institutions to be a bit more genuine about this, and not to think so quickly about what can we do to prevent the institution from facing a charge of sexism, or what can we do to deny or dismiss these allegations, toward thinking, what can we do to really and truly be helpful to these women? In other words, approach it from the point of view of trying to help the people involved instead of trying to help the institution. That will make a very big difference.
I also think that citizenship activities, serving on committees, doing thankless tasks behind the scenes, and clinical work, seeing patients ... Women are overrepresented among clinicians. Of course, we know that research and bringing in big grants is often prioritized over clinical care, despite what institutions may say about that in public. I think those activities should be valued more highly, both in terms of pay and in terms of academic recognition.
In regard to the issue of salary, I would encourage institutions to publish salaries or at least make them easily findable by people within the institution. I think there should be objective criteria for salary determinations. The most important thing is that I do not think that women should be expected to negotiate their salaries. Women are judged differently than men when they attempt to negotiate salaries. It often backfires for them. It also is something that many women do not feel comfortable doing.
Waiting until somebody tries to negotiate a higher salary really guarantees, embeds, and operationalizes sex differences in salaries. We need to move away from the idea that you have to be a go-getter and that you have to ask for this raise. There should be objective criteria, salaries should be revisited on a regular basis, and the kinds of activities that women do that are undervalued should be more recognized in terms of money and advancement within academia.
Dr. LaFaver: I couldn’t agree more. One of the other topics discussed at the Women in Neurology conference was mid-career development, retention, and career paths. I think it’s known that many women leave academic medicine mid-career. I think these are excellent suggestions and hopefully will help to make careers successful for men and women, without needing to worry about being treated differently or unfairly.
Thank you so much. This was a wonderful overview of this topic.
Dr. Loder: You’re welcome, Dr. LaFaver. Thank you so much for asking me to speak on this topic. I really appreciate it.
Dr. LaFaver: Thanks, everyone.
Dr. LaFaver is a neurologist at Saratoga Hospital Medical Group, Saratoga Springs, New York. Dr. LaFaver and Dr. Loder disclosed no relevant financial relationships.
A version of this article appeared on Medscape.com.
This interview was recorded Dec. 8, 2023. The transcript has been edited for clarity.
Kathrin LaFaver, MD: I have the pleasure of talking with Dr. Elizabeth Loder today. Dr. Loder is the vice chair of academic affairs in the department of neurology and a staff physician at Graham Headache Center at Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston. She’s also a professor of neurology at Harvard Medical School and has been a mentor to many headache specialists in the field.
We’ll be talking about the topic of sexism in medicine.
Elizabeth W. Loder, MD, MPH: Thank you so much, Dr. LaFaver. I’m very pleased to be here to talk about something that I think is very important.
Dr. LaFaver: Dr. Loder, you were a speaker at our Women in Neurology third annual conference in Florida, giving a talk on this very topic, sexism in medicine. It was very helpful, especially for many younger women entering the field of neurology, to hear that some of the experiences they’re having are not unique to them, but unfortunately remain a more systemic issue.
To get us started, could you define sexism in medicine for us, and how you got interested in this topic?
Sexism Can Be Subtle
Dr. Loder: You’re absolutely right. It’s nice for women, particularly those entering the field, to know that they’re not alone.
What is sexism? Well, it’s generally considered to be prejudice or discrimination against someone based on their sex or gender. One thing that’s important to remember is it’s not always extremely obvious. It’s not always intentional. I think most of us, I’d include myself in that, have sexist views. We may not always be aware of them. This is part of the unconscious bias that many of us have been trained to think.
As one example, we’re socialized — or I certainly was — to think of doctors as male. When a patient says, “I saw a cardiologist,” in my mind, I think that that person might have been male. Sometimes, I will ask, “What did he say?” That’s an example of sexism.
Sexism can be internalized. It can come from any source. We’re all implicated in it. I think that’s very important to remember. This is not a case of them doing something to us. This is something that is much more widespread and engendered in the society that we live in.
Dr. LaFaver: I think that’s really important to realize. Could you mention some other examples, specifically in the field of neurology, that you have encountered?
Dr. Loder: Certainly, looking over my own career — and I’m at a point now where I can look at early, mid, and late career — things were, of course, very different when I began. I would say that sexism was much more overt.
Very early in my career, I experienced a large amount of hostility from a boss. I ended up having to leave. This was, I believe, based on my sex. It turned out that leaving was a good thing for me, but it was a very unpleasant experience.
I also became a leader in my professional society. During my path to leadership and seeing other women attempt to make progress within the organization, I certainly saw behavior that I would characterize as rooted in sexism. To its credit, though, the professional society to which I belong, I think, has become one of the most progressive societies out there. The women within have been able to affect quite a bit of change in that professional organization.
I dealt with a case of sexual harassment in my own division when I was a division chief, which gave me insight into institutional policies and procedures meant to deal with situations like that, which, I think, leave something to be desired. That’s changing.
Now, I work in academic affairs, and I see how likely or unlikely people, based on their sex, are to put themselves forward for promotion, how likely they are to believe in their own capabilities. I also work as a medical journal editor, and I see generally that women are more hesitant to proclaim themselves experts and to accept invitations to provide or write editorial commentary. Sometimes, they do not perceive themselves as being expert enough to do so. I have seen many of these things over my career.
Dr. LaFaver: Thank you for sharing. I think it’s important to realize that it›s not just unidirectional but sometimes affects women and kind of goes both ways.
As you mentioned, these issues are not always overt. In recent years, microaggressions has become more of a term that has been used. Could you talk a bit about that? What are the microaggressions and how do they affect women?
Microaggressions and Migraine Mavens
Dr. Loder: The term microaggression has become very popular, and I think many people find it somewhat irritating. That, to me, is inherent in what a microaggression is. Microaggressions, by definition, are small things. It’s hard to prove that they were rooted in sexism. Sometimes, there’s a large amount of ambiguity about it. It can be as simple as inviting a pregnant woman to sit down because you perceive that she needs to sit, commenting on somebody’s shoes, or things like that.
Often, they’re unintentional. Sometimes, they come from a place of what we might term benevolent sexism, people trying to be helpful to a woman because they perceive that she’s weaker or she might not be able to do something, or maybe she has family responsibilities. They think that they’re being helpful. These things happen when we perceive people to be different in some way, as women are perceived to be different in terms of their responsibilities in the home or different in terms of what we expect from them in the workplace.
The problem with microaggressions is because they’re small, each one of them, I think the temptation is often to say, “Oh you know, they didn’t mean it. It’s not that big a deal. It was just a comment on your shoes.” If a woman brings that up, she’s often made to feel, sometimes by other women, that she should just chill out. This isn’t a big deal.
The problem is that they may not be a big deal in and of themselves, but when they are repeated over a long period of time, they can really sap somebody’s confidence in herself, make her question her own competence, and can have a cumulative effect that is very negative.
Although I think many people are skeptical about microaggressions as an important contribution to how women do in the workplace and in other settings, they are, in my opinion, important. I’ll just emphasize again that they come from everywhere, including other women and colleagues who mean to be helpful.
Dr. LaFaver: I know you have led a team of headache specialists and wrote a fantastic article about navigating sexism at work and what not to say to your female colleagues. Could you share some tips for them to navigate sexism at work and, specifically, as it applies to our careers in medicine.
Dr. Loder: Thank you for calling out that article. It actually grew organically out of a Facebook group that I started called Migraine Mavens. I’ve worked in the headache field throughout my career, and I experienced something that, to me, was kind of discouraging that I felt was sexist within our field. I just thought, What can I do? I thought, Well, maybe there’s some strength to be had in sharing this with other women, and maybe we should have our own social media community, so I formed this group.
After I gave a talk at the American Headache Society about sexism in the headache field, one of the members sent me a message saying, “Your talk was very timely. Immediately after you gave this talk, somebody stopped me in the hall and said, ‘Congratulations on your leadership position in the society, but are you really sure you can do this because you’ve got young children at home?’ Your talk was very needed.”
People started just discussing within the group, “Oh, this happened to me,” “That happened to me.” We began to brainstorm what we could have done differently. When these things happen, people are not necessarily prepared for them, and later on, you lie awake thinking of what you could have said.
We decided to write a paper. It ended up being published in The Journal of Head and Face Pain, and it was based on real vignettes from people in the group. We anonymized them so that people would not recognize themselves necessarily, but they’re all real. They’re things that really happened to women in the group.
We first describe the vignette — what happened. Then we explain, for those who need the explanation, what’s wrong with it. Why is it wrong to tell somebody to smile, for example. What could you do differently? What could somebody who sees this happen do, the so-called bystander or upstander? If you witness something like that, can you help the person toward whom this problematic behavior is directed? We came up with some examples. The all-purpose thing is to say, “What did you just say?” Make them repeat it, which often helps people to realize how inappropriate it is.
This got published as an article. It became quite the subject of attention on X [formerly Twitter] and elsewhere. I guess the term going viral would apply to this. It included a large amount of real-world advice. The thing I really loved about it was that it was written by the women in the group who had experienced these things. I would characterize it as having been somewhat therapeutic. We got many messages from women in other disciplines, outside medicine, saying that this happens in oceanography, for example. I think what we described really resonated beyond the field of headache medicine and neurology.
Institutional Sexism
Dr. LaFaver: Looking beyond the individual person, do you have any recommendations for medical institutions to share in order to do better and maybe create an environment that is less sexist?
Dr. Loder: Yes. I think many institutions try to deal with the problem of lack of diversity, whether it›s women or other underrepresented groups, by hiring. That’s one way to go about it, but I think retention strategies are also very important, and they need to pay attention to the work environment.
Every institution now has guidelines about harassment, bullying, sexism, racism, and so on. In general though — and I’m not speaking about any particular institution — these policies and procedures are often crafted with an eye toward protecting the institution. I would advise institutions to be a bit more genuine about this, and not to think so quickly about what can we do to prevent the institution from facing a charge of sexism, or what can we do to deny or dismiss these allegations, toward thinking, what can we do to really and truly be helpful to these women? In other words, approach it from the point of view of trying to help the people involved instead of trying to help the institution. That will make a very big difference.
I also think that citizenship activities, serving on committees, doing thankless tasks behind the scenes, and clinical work, seeing patients ... Women are overrepresented among clinicians. Of course, we know that research and bringing in big grants is often prioritized over clinical care, despite what institutions may say about that in public. I think those activities should be valued more highly, both in terms of pay and in terms of academic recognition.
In regard to the issue of salary, I would encourage institutions to publish salaries or at least make them easily findable by people within the institution. I think there should be objective criteria for salary determinations. The most important thing is that I do not think that women should be expected to negotiate their salaries. Women are judged differently than men when they attempt to negotiate salaries. It often backfires for them. It also is something that many women do not feel comfortable doing.
Waiting until somebody tries to negotiate a higher salary really guarantees, embeds, and operationalizes sex differences in salaries. We need to move away from the idea that you have to be a go-getter and that you have to ask for this raise. There should be objective criteria, salaries should be revisited on a regular basis, and the kinds of activities that women do that are undervalued should be more recognized in terms of money and advancement within academia.
Dr. LaFaver: I couldn’t agree more. One of the other topics discussed at the Women in Neurology conference was mid-career development, retention, and career paths. I think it’s known that many women leave academic medicine mid-career. I think these are excellent suggestions and hopefully will help to make careers successful for men and women, without needing to worry about being treated differently or unfairly.
Thank you so much. This was a wonderful overview of this topic.
Dr. Loder: You’re welcome, Dr. LaFaver. Thank you so much for asking me to speak on this topic. I really appreciate it.
Dr. LaFaver: Thanks, everyone.
Dr. LaFaver is a neurologist at Saratoga Hospital Medical Group, Saratoga Springs, New York. Dr. LaFaver and Dr. Loder disclosed no relevant financial relationships.
A version of this article appeared on Medscape.com.
This interview was recorded Dec. 8, 2023. The transcript has been edited for clarity.
Kathrin LaFaver, MD: I have the pleasure of talking with Dr. Elizabeth Loder today. Dr. Loder is the vice chair of academic affairs in the department of neurology and a staff physician at Graham Headache Center at Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston. She’s also a professor of neurology at Harvard Medical School and has been a mentor to many headache specialists in the field.
We’ll be talking about the topic of sexism in medicine.
Elizabeth W. Loder, MD, MPH: Thank you so much, Dr. LaFaver. I’m very pleased to be here to talk about something that I think is very important.
Dr. LaFaver: Dr. Loder, you were a speaker at our Women in Neurology third annual conference in Florida, giving a talk on this very topic, sexism in medicine. It was very helpful, especially for many younger women entering the field of neurology, to hear that some of the experiences they’re having are not unique to them, but unfortunately remain a more systemic issue.
To get us started, could you define sexism in medicine for us, and how you got interested in this topic?
Sexism Can Be Subtle
Dr. Loder: You’re absolutely right. It’s nice for women, particularly those entering the field, to know that they’re not alone.
What is sexism? Well, it’s generally considered to be prejudice or discrimination against someone based on their sex or gender. One thing that’s important to remember is it’s not always extremely obvious. It’s not always intentional. I think most of us, I’d include myself in that, have sexist views. We may not always be aware of them. This is part of the unconscious bias that many of us have been trained to think.
As one example, we’re socialized — or I certainly was — to think of doctors as male. When a patient says, “I saw a cardiologist,” in my mind, I think that that person might have been male. Sometimes, I will ask, “What did he say?” That’s an example of sexism.
Sexism can be internalized. It can come from any source. We’re all implicated in it. I think that’s very important to remember. This is not a case of them doing something to us. This is something that is much more widespread and engendered in the society that we live in.
Dr. LaFaver: I think that’s really important to realize. Could you mention some other examples, specifically in the field of neurology, that you have encountered?
Dr. Loder: Certainly, looking over my own career — and I’m at a point now where I can look at early, mid, and late career — things were, of course, very different when I began. I would say that sexism was much more overt.
Very early in my career, I experienced a large amount of hostility from a boss. I ended up having to leave. This was, I believe, based on my sex. It turned out that leaving was a good thing for me, but it was a very unpleasant experience.
I also became a leader in my professional society. During my path to leadership and seeing other women attempt to make progress within the organization, I certainly saw behavior that I would characterize as rooted in sexism. To its credit, though, the professional society to which I belong, I think, has become one of the most progressive societies out there. The women within have been able to affect quite a bit of change in that professional organization.
I dealt with a case of sexual harassment in my own division when I was a division chief, which gave me insight into institutional policies and procedures meant to deal with situations like that, which, I think, leave something to be desired. That’s changing.
Now, I work in academic affairs, and I see how likely or unlikely people, based on their sex, are to put themselves forward for promotion, how likely they are to believe in their own capabilities. I also work as a medical journal editor, and I see generally that women are more hesitant to proclaim themselves experts and to accept invitations to provide or write editorial commentary. Sometimes, they do not perceive themselves as being expert enough to do so. I have seen many of these things over my career.
Dr. LaFaver: Thank you for sharing. I think it’s important to realize that it›s not just unidirectional but sometimes affects women and kind of goes both ways.
As you mentioned, these issues are not always overt. In recent years, microaggressions has become more of a term that has been used. Could you talk a bit about that? What are the microaggressions and how do they affect women?
Microaggressions and Migraine Mavens
Dr. Loder: The term microaggression has become very popular, and I think many people find it somewhat irritating. That, to me, is inherent in what a microaggression is. Microaggressions, by definition, are small things. It’s hard to prove that they were rooted in sexism. Sometimes, there’s a large amount of ambiguity about it. It can be as simple as inviting a pregnant woman to sit down because you perceive that she needs to sit, commenting on somebody’s shoes, or things like that.
Often, they’re unintentional. Sometimes, they come from a place of what we might term benevolent sexism, people trying to be helpful to a woman because they perceive that she’s weaker or she might not be able to do something, or maybe she has family responsibilities. They think that they’re being helpful. These things happen when we perceive people to be different in some way, as women are perceived to be different in terms of their responsibilities in the home or different in terms of what we expect from them in the workplace.
The problem with microaggressions is because they’re small, each one of them, I think the temptation is often to say, “Oh you know, they didn’t mean it. It’s not that big a deal. It was just a comment on your shoes.” If a woman brings that up, she’s often made to feel, sometimes by other women, that she should just chill out. This isn’t a big deal.
The problem is that they may not be a big deal in and of themselves, but when they are repeated over a long period of time, they can really sap somebody’s confidence in herself, make her question her own competence, and can have a cumulative effect that is very negative.
Although I think many people are skeptical about microaggressions as an important contribution to how women do in the workplace and in other settings, they are, in my opinion, important. I’ll just emphasize again that they come from everywhere, including other women and colleagues who mean to be helpful.
Dr. LaFaver: I know you have led a team of headache specialists and wrote a fantastic article about navigating sexism at work and what not to say to your female colleagues. Could you share some tips for them to navigate sexism at work and, specifically, as it applies to our careers in medicine.
Dr. Loder: Thank you for calling out that article. It actually grew organically out of a Facebook group that I started called Migraine Mavens. I’ve worked in the headache field throughout my career, and I experienced something that, to me, was kind of discouraging that I felt was sexist within our field. I just thought, What can I do? I thought, Well, maybe there’s some strength to be had in sharing this with other women, and maybe we should have our own social media community, so I formed this group.
After I gave a talk at the American Headache Society about sexism in the headache field, one of the members sent me a message saying, “Your talk was very timely. Immediately after you gave this talk, somebody stopped me in the hall and said, ‘Congratulations on your leadership position in the society, but are you really sure you can do this because you’ve got young children at home?’ Your talk was very needed.”
People started just discussing within the group, “Oh, this happened to me,” “That happened to me.” We began to brainstorm what we could have done differently. When these things happen, people are not necessarily prepared for them, and later on, you lie awake thinking of what you could have said.
We decided to write a paper. It ended up being published in The Journal of Head and Face Pain, and it was based on real vignettes from people in the group. We anonymized them so that people would not recognize themselves necessarily, but they’re all real. They’re things that really happened to women in the group.
We first describe the vignette — what happened. Then we explain, for those who need the explanation, what’s wrong with it. Why is it wrong to tell somebody to smile, for example. What could you do differently? What could somebody who sees this happen do, the so-called bystander or upstander? If you witness something like that, can you help the person toward whom this problematic behavior is directed? We came up with some examples. The all-purpose thing is to say, “What did you just say?” Make them repeat it, which often helps people to realize how inappropriate it is.
This got published as an article. It became quite the subject of attention on X [formerly Twitter] and elsewhere. I guess the term going viral would apply to this. It included a large amount of real-world advice. The thing I really loved about it was that it was written by the women in the group who had experienced these things. I would characterize it as having been somewhat therapeutic. We got many messages from women in other disciplines, outside medicine, saying that this happens in oceanography, for example. I think what we described really resonated beyond the field of headache medicine and neurology.
Institutional Sexism
Dr. LaFaver: Looking beyond the individual person, do you have any recommendations for medical institutions to share in order to do better and maybe create an environment that is less sexist?
Dr. Loder: Yes. I think many institutions try to deal with the problem of lack of diversity, whether it›s women or other underrepresented groups, by hiring. That’s one way to go about it, but I think retention strategies are also very important, and they need to pay attention to the work environment.
Every institution now has guidelines about harassment, bullying, sexism, racism, and so on. In general though — and I’m not speaking about any particular institution — these policies and procedures are often crafted with an eye toward protecting the institution. I would advise institutions to be a bit more genuine about this, and not to think so quickly about what can we do to prevent the institution from facing a charge of sexism, or what can we do to deny or dismiss these allegations, toward thinking, what can we do to really and truly be helpful to these women? In other words, approach it from the point of view of trying to help the people involved instead of trying to help the institution. That will make a very big difference.
I also think that citizenship activities, serving on committees, doing thankless tasks behind the scenes, and clinical work, seeing patients ... Women are overrepresented among clinicians. Of course, we know that research and bringing in big grants is often prioritized over clinical care, despite what institutions may say about that in public. I think those activities should be valued more highly, both in terms of pay and in terms of academic recognition.
In regard to the issue of salary, I would encourage institutions to publish salaries or at least make them easily findable by people within the institution. I think there should be objective criteria for salary determinations. The most important thing is that I do not think that women should be expected to negotiate their salaries. Women are judged differently than men when they attempt to negotiate salaries. It often backfires for them. It also is something that many women do not feel comfortable doing.
Waiting until somebody tries to negotiate a higher salary really guarantees, embeds, and operationalizes sex differences in salaries. We need to move away from the idea that you have to be a go-getter and that you have to ask for this raise. There should be objective criteria, salaries should be revisited on a regular basis, and the kinds of activities that women do that are undervalued should be more recognized in terms of money and advancement within academia.
Dr. LaFaver: I couldn’t agree more. One of the other topics discussed at the Women in Neurology conference was mid-career development, retention, and career paths. I think it’s known that many women leave academic medicine mid-career. I think these are excellent suggestions and hopefully will help to make careers successful for men and women, without needing to worry about being treated differently or unfairly.
Thank you so much. This was a wonderful overview of this topic.
Dr. Loder: You’re welcome, Dr. LaFaver. Thank you so much for asking me to speak on this topic. I really appreciate it.
Dr. LaFaver: Thanks, everyone.
Dr. LaFaver is a neurologist at Saratoga Hospital Medical Group, Saratoga Springs, New York. Dr. LaFaver and Dr. Loder disclosed no relevant financial relationships.
A version of this article appeared on Medscape.com.