This interview was recorded Dec. 8, 2023. The transcript has been edited for clarity.
Kathrin LaFaver, MD: I have the pleasure of talking with Dr. Elizabeth Loder today. Dr. Loder is the vice chair of academic affairs in the department of neurology and a staff physician at Graham Headache Center at Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston. She’s also a professor of neurology at Harvard Medical School and has been a mentor to many headache specialists in the field.
We’ll be talking about the topic of sexism in medicine.
Elizabeth W. Loder, MD, MPH: Thank you so much, Dr. LaFaver. I’m very pleased to be here to talk about something that I think is very important.
Dr. LaFaver: Dr. Loder, you were a speaker at our Women in Neurology third annual conference in Florida, giving a talk on this very topic, sexism in medicine. It was very helpful, especially for many younger women entering the field of neurology, to hear that some of the experiences they’re having are not unique to them, but unfortunately remain a more systemic issue.
To get us started, could you define sexism in medicine for us, and how you got interested in this topic?
Sexism Can Be Subtle
Dr. Loder: You’re absolutely right. It’s nice for women, particularly those entering the field, to know that they’re not alone.
What is sexism? Well, it’s generally considered to be prejudice or discrimination against someone based on their sex or gender. One thing that’s important to remember is it’s not always extremely obvious. It’s not always intentional. I think most of us, I’d include myself in that, have sexist views. We may not always be aware of them. This is part of the unconscious bias that many of us have been trained to think.
As one example, we’re socialized — or I certainly was — to think of doctors as male. When a patient says, “I saw a cardiologist,” in my mind, I think that that person might have been male. Sometimes, I will ask, “What did he say?” That’s an example of sexism.
Sexism can be internalized. It can come from any source. We’re all implicated in it. I think that’s very important to remember. This is not a case of them doing something to us. This is something that is much more widespread and engendered in the society that we live in.
Dr. LaFaver: I think that’s really important to realize. Could you mention some other examples, specifically in the field of neurology, that you have encountered?
Dr. Loder: Certainly, looking over my own career — and I’m at a point now where I can look at early, mid, and late career — things were, of course, very different when I began. I would say that sexism was much more overt.
Very early in my career, I experienced a large amount of hostility from a boss. I ended up having to leave. This was, I believe, based on my sex. It turned out that leaving was a good thing for me, but it was a very unpleasant experience.
I also became a leader in my professional society. During my path to leadership and seeing other women attempt to make progress within the organization, I certainly saw behavior that I would characterize as rooted in sexism. To its credit, though, the professional society to which I belong, I think, has become one of the most progressive societies out there. The women within have been able to affect quite a bit of change in that professional organization.
I dealt with a case of sexual harassment in my own division when I was a division chief, which gave me insight into institutional policies and procedures meant to deal with situations like that, which, I think, leave something to be desired. That’s changing.
Now, I work in academic affairs, and I see how likely or unlikely people, based on their sex, are to put themselves forward for promotion, how likely they are to believe in their own capabilities. I also work as a medical journal editor, and I see generally that women are more hesitant to proclaim themselves experts and to accept invitations to provide or write editorial commentary. Sometimes, they do not perceive themselves as being expert enough to do so. I have seen many of these things over my career.
Dr. LaFaver: Thank you for sharing. I think it’s important to realize that it›s not just unidirectional but sometimes affects women and kind of goes both ways.
As you mentioned, these issues are not always overt. In recent years, microaggressions has become more of a term that has been used. Could you talk a bit about that? What are the microaggressions and how do they affect women?